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Off-Topic Discussion / Re: #PrayforIstanbul
« on: 6 October 2020, 11:34:16 PM »Ok, you want to discuss the likelyhood that a single generic god exists. I posit that there is a low likelyhood, given so many years of this claim going on and no evidence to support it. Where's the evidence? We've had thousands of years now, why is there nothing concrete we can point to? Why is it that the best anyone can do is provide subjective notions and/or worse; faith - the belief in something without proof.
How can this god be omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (all-present) and omnibenevolent (all-good) all at the same time? This seems to be self-contradictory. Take an innocent, disadvantaged African child with aggressive bone cancer as our example. I suppose this god put this into motion then. Paraphrasing Epicurus, Hume, Heinlein, Hawking, etc:
Is it willing to give this child a fair chance at life, but not able? Then it is not omnipotent.
Is it able, but not willing? Then it is not omnibenevolent.
Is it both able and willing? Then why do innocent African children die of aggressive bone cancer? Why is there so much unnecessary evil?
Or is this god neither able nor willing? Then it's not a god, is it? Certainly not one to revere.
So, I don't really like the idea of this thing existing, but since you want to discuss the likelihood, I still say I want to hear reasoning or evidence for why I should even consider it likely.
Finding and designating potentially habitable moons and planets in the universe is a very new exercise. Astronomers have only been doing it for a few years now. The list is only dozens long so far, but the mathematical potential for habitable places in the universe is essentially infinite when you consider the size of it. It's certainly possible that lifeforms and civilizations have already come and gone countless times, or that plenty are just growing now alongside us at various stages. There could be life elsewhere in our solar system, in the soils of Mars or the atmosphere of Venus, or elsewhere for all we know. Unfortunately the Solar System is massive, and the universe beyond it is almost incomprehensibly massive, so the chances of us detecting life with our technology are unlikely at this stage. Regardless, we have evidence of rudimentary protein synthesis in certain conditions, so just on the basis of chemistry and physics, these things could certainly occur in countless places in the universe. It makes extraterrestrial life seem likely. Finding it is the incredibly hard part.
I don't think it can be reasonably posited that there's a low likelihood for a single God to exist on the merit of a few thousand years of history and inherent subjectivity when it comes to interpreting evidence that may or may not suggest said God's existence alone. In the two quotes above, you're suggesting (correct me if I'm misinterpreting) that within the same period of time, it's reasonable that humans have only just begun to find new habitable planets (relevant new article!), but unreasonable that they haven't found "concrete" evidence of a deity's existence. In our lifetime, I don't believe that we'll be able to physically find irrefutable proof that something in the natural world demonstrates the undeniable existence of God, with absolutely zero room for speculation or hypothesizing. Something I am suggesting (and this once again relates to my personal worldview but cannot be completely and objectively grounded without room for counterarguments) is that we may be able to infer the existence of a God based on the cosmological argument and principle of sufficient reason. While they may not put all counterclaims to rest, I don't think it's illogical to factor them in when contemplating whether or not it's possible that God exists. And although it is certainly true that some "evidence" is more compelling than others, when it comes to whether or not a piece/pieces of evidence can reasonably point to God existing, there will always be scholarly debate as to what can be considered more concrete. Given that I am neither a philosophical nor a religious scholar, and that in this discussion I carry the much bigger burden of having to suggest something exists (when in cases like these it's a lot easier to not have to prove something if you don't believe it exists in the first place), I cannot physically show indisputable "proof" without inherent doubt and bias surrounding it.
Based on the definition of God we put forth earlier, I don't think it's inherently self-contradictory that God can be omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (all-present) and omnibenevolent (all-good) all at the same time. For what you paraphrased regarding what disqualifies a deity from being considered as having the first three attributes, I agree. It's the omnibenevolence counterpoint you highlighted that I don't know if it can be stated with absolute certainty. Obviously, an impoverished, sick child living in poor conditions sucks. In my personal worldview, the same omnibenevolent deity would have already accounted for this fact by giving said child the appropriate benefits/compensation in an afterlife after they die on Earth. The judgement required to determine what sort of compensation/accountability is fair would presumably be at the same magnitude of ability to be omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent in the first place, and as such we as humans would not be able to properly consider/make a judgement of whether or not each case was fair due to not having the ability to compensate/empathize/impartially judge in the first place. There is practically no way to justify this with scientifically grounded evidence, as such a concept revolves entirely around a realm/place outside of the natural world as we know it and generally believe that the moral arc of the universe is long, but bends towards justice (thanks MLK). What are your general thoughts on the concept of an afterlife/heaven and people believing as such?
Proposing an outside (all-powerful incorporeal) input is interesting, but I see no evidence or necessity for one. It's a curious concept, but I can't put belief into it. Since you do seem to believe in this outside input, why do you think it's the case? And perhaps more importantly, why specifically one god? Why not 2 or 43? That's the problem with these claims, they seem equally as (in)plausible as just about any random claim I can make up. Can you establish why you at least find it likely?
I personally think it's the case simply because, as I mentioned earlier, I find it more plausible that the conditions of our world existing within the universe as we know it and having just the right conditions to sustain life (also as we know it) to have had outside input rather than statistically coming to be through chance (as well as the fact that the universe and/or the initial singularity of the Big Bang [collectively "the natural world"] may have had to have had come into existence somehow rather than simply spawning from utter nothingness). As far as why I think it's a single God and not two or twenty, I simply just think on a fundamental level it's far less problematic. If you were to have two gods, for instance, designing and having input on everything ever created, this would both be self-contradictory as you paraphrased earlier (if they meet the definition of a god, then how come they need to co-create and consider the other's input in the first place?) as well as the fact that it's a lot easier to mull over that causality stems from a sole source rather than multiple sources having to work together in tandem. While I'm still clearly believing the conceptually very-significant-to-consider idea that a God exists, it becomes way easier on a logarithmic-esque scale to rationalize a single God.
Fine, incorporeal, tho it seems largely synonymous with supernatural in this case. We only have evidence of things that exist "naturally". Everything is made of matter and energy by our observations. And yes, we can think of and assign descriptors and concepts like numbers and justice, but they aren't agents intervening in the natural world like the god claim. If they were, we could measure it - and to the best of our knowledge, that means it would exist in the natural universe. So, does your god intervene? Do you have evidence - what is it? Do you just find it likely - why?
As we both know, there are countless "documented" stories throughout history of people claiming divine intervention has occurred at a specific instance/instances, and given that the vast majority of these stories haven't necessarily been factually verified or had potential alternative causes dissuaded from contention, it's borderline (if not outright) impossible to prove a god intervenes with indisputable "concrete" evidence as you put it. I personally do believe God intervenes in certain situations, whether it's potentially influencing a decision or even real-life deus ex machina scenarios (on a technical level, the term had to originate from somewhere/some belief) in rare instances. Can I point to specific instances being more likely than others? Not really. Do I think it's something to potentially consider if order is to be maintained in the universe? I definitely (from a personal standpoint) think it's possible to consider.